You may have found your "Lorenzo's oil" Ray. Keep us posted. I'm very interested.

Don't know if you're aware of this, I wasn't until I did some research a few months ago, but the symptoms of scurvy...yes I said scurvy are a lot like withdrawl symptoms. I had this fuzzy, dull, stupid, couldn't focus type of feeling while I was taking hydro and couldn't figure out what it was. Another DBer reported the same symptoms and started a thread that many people responded to with similar situations.

After much speculation and research I stumbled upon scurvy, read the symptoms and they were a near perfect match to what we were all describing, at the time. I immediately started taking vitamin C and haven't had any symptoms since. It never helped my neck pain but it definitely cleared the cobwebs out of my brain and elevated my mood to where I could function again.

Just an interesting experience I thought I'd share. Anyone else ever hear of such a thing?

Some more literature:

http://www.nutricology.com/arg/arg_articles/focus9906-02.htm

http://www.restoreunity.org/opiate_addiction.htm

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm

Also, a big "hmmmmmmmm" -

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm


God Bless,

Ray

One more really good and very recent article (using modern, convnetional medical research) - abstract only (but worth reading):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...l=pubmed_docsum

Hi Ray, Could you please tell me exactly what the name of these vitamins are, and where you can buy them, and also how many you take. I am no longer taking hydro, and really havent been feeling 100% at times. I know you mentioned vitamin C, but are they tablets, capsules, and what milligrams, and what the other one was besides the vitamin E. Thanks for any info. I would greatly appreciate it.

uatotlmess:

Go to your local pharmacy or health - food store and look at the "Vitamin C" selection. You will almost certainly find an "Ester - C" form of Vitamin C that is likely to be made of (look at the ingredients) 'Calcium Ascorbate'...that's a winner.

Also, look at other Vitamin C products and (especially in "chewable" forms) look for "Sodium Ascorbate" as an active ingredent...this is maybe even better.

I take both.

Stay away from simple "Ascorbic Acid" as the studies don't seem to reference this unbuffered form as much.


As far as dosing is concerned, this is a real question. For me, I saw results at about 3000mg doses every 4 to 5 hours (this works out to 16 to 20 grams per day). According to nearly *everything* that I have read, these levels of "megadoses" are completely safe. If your dose happens to cause loose stools, back off until that problem ends and stick with the lower "threshold" dose (the dose low enough to *not* cause loose stools)).

According to the most recent study, the dose was 300mg / kg of body weight per day. This works out to (very roughly) a little more than 1 gram for every 10 pounds of weight (so, if you weigh 160...it would be about 16 grams per day). Recall, 1 gram (1g) = 1000 milligrams (1000mg).

The Vitamin E (as far as I can tell) is used to regulate the absorbtion of Vitamin C. Doses here are 5mg / kg / day....or....about 33mg per 10 pounds of body weight. So, if you weigh 150 (again), your dose of Vitamin E would be right around 500mg / day.

Be sure to take these doses in evenly - divided quantities every 4 or 5 hours throughout the day (so, if you weigh 150 pounds and are taking 16 grams per day, you might take 4 doses (every 5 hours) per day at 4 grams per dose (4000mg per dose).


While I can tell you that it is not a "cure all", it certainly does have a *noticeable* impact (at least for me).

Given the low cost of the stuff (and the fact that it's likely very good for you), it can't hurt to try it!


God Bless,


Ray

Ray,
I have been following your post since the beginning. I want you to know that I am so proud of you, but more importantly, since I've been reading your post. I have made an important decision in my life as well.

I have been an addict basically all my life. I started drugging when I was 13, by the time I was 16 my drinking was already out of control.

I finally left home at 18 and moved to Atlanta, where I discovered Cocaine, and all sorts of drugs. I have been a bartender most of my life.. Finally at age 23 I got pregnant and by the GRACE of GOD , I was able to put down my drinking, at which at that time was about 1/2 fifth a day. And also quit smoking Cig... And got out of the Bar business.

I did really great for 6 years , then I had some medical problems , requiring me to have 7 surgeries in about 14 months , I then finally discovered the Love of my life Pain pills.. In a period of 4 years I developed a 30 to 40 day 10/500 habit along with 20 to 30 xanax or valium.

Then was in 96 when my world came crashing down. I was a stay at home mom , member of the PTA , shcool aid , you all get the picture... And none was the wiser I was a functioning drug addict. But in order to support that huge habit I had resorted to writing illegal prescriptions... I was busted, but in jail the whole nine yard... I had a good Judge who did not want me in jail , hence I went into a 9 week rehab.. I changed my life and all was wonderful.


I have always had a supported loving husband, even when he was using, He was always and is my soul mate , wonderful family and the most wonderful children God could have ever given me.. I sometimes wonder just what I did to derseve this. Because My home life with my parents was a bad one.. They were both addicts, and my mom died when she was 48. and me and my brother always just fenden for ourselves, Daddy worked in the coal mines and we just had to make do. And I did some really terrible things as a teen.. (Okay I off point)

Well .. I will try to shorten this My husband had a cocaine problem when we met , but had been clean off Coke for 12 years...Also during this time he suffered 2 heartattacks. The last one he had a triple by-pass at age 40. Then He discover meth, Ice, whatever you want to call it. He ended up going to prison for 2 year. He got out in 2003 and it was the best thing ever to happen for him.. He turned his life around , found the Lord and tries to help others like him.. He is truly an inspiration...

But while he was gone I picked up my habit again.. And along with that habit, I got really angry, at the world and especially at my hubby, for all the [censored] he put me thru , before he left and than leaving me with 3 kids and alone. He knows I am using again and is furious with me. He tells me I love you, but you get this right or we will not make it, because I can't live like this , because he is an addict at heart, and he just will not be around anyone who is doing this.

I have never been back to my 30 to 40 a day habit, but I am around 10- 15 a day these days. And now he's been home for 3 years and has proven himself over an over that he will never use again, he is so involved in church , youth group etc.. All I ever wanted... Let me correct something.. when I said he was clean 12 years , that was just from Coke.. He still smoked pot, drank and so on.. So , we have never really been together clean and sober...


And I tell you people I am having a hard time with this.. It's like I keep waitin for the bottom to drop out. So,, I have got to make a change... Pills have been such part of my life for so long, and yea I like the high, but I swear I think it helps me with depression, it's the only time I really feel happy. And like my hubby told me , you have everything what do u have to be unhappy about, I have even had some suicidal thoughts not often, but every now and then. I don't want to lose our 20 year marriage, but I know if I don't do something it will be over.

I started reading your post Ray, and it has given me some hope that I can to get off these pills and stay off.. My pattern of using in the last year in I stay clean about a week and then I use for 2.

Okay I am sorry this is so long , but I sure needed to vent , we are leaving for a family reunion today, will be back Monday. I have 20 10/325 on me and 7 2.0 Xanax.. I will begin a taper today and will post when I return ..

I would really like for all you to Pray for me, I am 41 and I don't want to end up like my parents, I want to break this cycle and give my kids hope. I want to feel joy again, and it's been so long since I've felt actual joy , I have forgotten whats it like.

All Keep me in your prayers
Thanks for Listening

Hi Ray,
First off, THANKS for the info about the vitamins, it is very much appreciated. Secondly, I like to congratulate you on your journey of being hydro-free. Isnt life MUCH better without it? I know myself, that I do feel alot better, but still do have some "bad days", thinking about it, and all. But I will never go back to where I was, I do know that for sure. Now, if I could only get my BF to stop using, life would be almost perfect. lol. He wants no parts of stopping, and does have very legimate pain, but, although I dont think the hydro is helping much anymore. He says it is, so I will leave him alone for now at least. Again, thanks for the vitamin info, I am going to go get them, and see how I feel on the bad days. I wish you much continued success in your new hydro free lifestyle.

Research Update:

OK - I found this interresting...and as it relates to one of my remaining symptoms, I decided to dig deeper.

First, I will be officially at 6 weeks in a few hours. While I continue to have some other minor problems, the main problem (where things still seem out of place) is with my GI system. My introduction to vitamin C has really put the remaining other issues at bay...and while my doses have not caused a worsening of my GI problems, the GI problems do remain.

So, I decided to return to a subject that I had ignored after the first few days of w/d: Immodium (Loperamide)


First, I discovered something *very* interresting.

Did everyone know that your intestines have their own little "brain"?

No, really, they do! Your "gut" has a separate nervous system that is (basically) independent of your CNS. This nervous system is known as the "Enteric nervous system". If you're interrested, this is a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system

Anyway, it turns out that (as with the CNS), the ENS has mu-opiate receptors. It is the broad - nervous system effect of opiates that causes constipation (in addition to other effects)...however, the constipation is the result of opiates binding to mu-opiate receptors in *only* the ENS.

So, what if you had an opiate that filled mu-opiate receptors...but it only did it in the ENS (and left the CNS alone)? Well, you would have something that couldn't be (truly) addictive (because it wouldn't do anything to your brain)...but it would satify the mu-opiate receptors in your ENS.

This is precisely what immodium (Loperamide) does. It is a full - blown, four - alarm opiate (like hydro, morphine, etc)...but it ignores your brain and CNS and just works (basically) in your "little brain" (in your bowel - lovely, huh?)

Anyway, this is why it is used for runny and loose stools...it won't manage pain (or get you high) but causes the same effect as opiates as it relates to slowing down the large intestine.

So, here's the rub: If one is trying to detox and lead a normal, functional life without opiates by returning the body to a non-dependent state, should immodium be used at any time near w/d (or anytime after, at all)?

The truth is that, apparently, in people who take immodium for extended periods - there can be a withdrawl syndrome similar to that of opiate w/d (while probably more pronounced in the GI tract). This would make perfect sense...as it would have the same effect as "regular" opiate w/d - but only acting on a smaller quantity of the overall nervous system.

So, perhaps taking immodium through w/d is a "one step" solution to the overall body problem (focusing on only creating w/d in the CNS) while delaying action on the ENS (which would still be "happy" due to the immodium).

This would lessen the extent of w/d during the first few weeks....but require a "bowel w/d" once you are ready to come off of the immodium.


In either case, I decided tonight that I was going to risk taking some immodium in the hopes of helping my GI issues...which, of course, it has.

I am treading ever so cautiously here, though...as I want to use the miniumum amount that I need to and try to use less and less as time goes by.

I wouldn't call it a "relapse"...but I have definitely taken opiates today...just not the kind that most people would think of as "bad".


Still, I am interrested in everyone's thoughts (I only took one dose). You can learn more about Loperamide here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loperamide


I am hoping to not need to take any tomorrow and will see how I am doing on Saturday.


God Bless,


Ray

I have been on daily high doses of opiates for the past ten years and it has done some real damage to my GI System.

The Opiates slow down the entire digestive system, as well as respitory at el.

I have horrible constipation. I go about once a week and it is an all day PAINFUL event. I use suppositories because I am impacted throughout my entire colon and my intestins. Using a laxative only makes things extremely worse in this case because if the exit is completely blocked, all the laxatives in the world are not going to break through it. All I get is incredible stomach pains.

The suppositories at least take care of the blockage at the end of the line. And with some luck things move a bit through the intentins. That is why it is an all day event. Things move very SLOWLY.

I never imagined that the long term use of opiates would cause this much damage. I have always had some constipation from them but had no idea of the damage that was occurring inside.

I have Diverticulitis now as well.

Hi, Ray. Congratulations on freeing yourself from your opiate use. Also, as you can see, you have obviously inspired someone to try and get off opiates. That's fantastic and really sums up what this board is all about...giving information or personal experiences for the benefit of others.

Anyway, regarding the Immodium, I have had to use this medication off and on for over 30 years, since I was a teen-ager. Various doctors have diagnosed everything from spastic colon, irritable colon, to IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) Anyway, I've never thought of Immodium as an opiate at all. It may have similar properties, but as I understand it, it does not cross the blood brain barrier. I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as relapsing because you need to use Immodium. Diarrhea is a far greater concern because left untreated, it can cause a whole host of problems on its own, the most serious being dehydration.

If you or anyone else needs to use it to get your system in check and back to normal, you should go ahead and do it. Compared to almost any medication I can think of, prescription or OTC, Immodium is relatively harmless. You can suffer far greater harm by not trying to control diarrhea. I've never seen any literature that states you might trigger your craving or whatever for opiates by using Immodium. Anyway, if the problem is just from withdrawals, a short course of taking Immodium should help a lot and at least eliminate one problem when stopping opiate use. I think it is far better to stop the "runs" and the cramping and pain that can accompany this, and most certainly the possibility of dehydration.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, but I really don't think it will hurt you at all...it will help you get rid of one of your few remaining symtoms.

Again, congratulations on your determination and your success. It's obvious that you are feeling a whole lot better now, and you can be proud of the fact that you are serving as an inspiration to other people on the board!

Time

Colace is a good stool softener which can ultimately make things less painful, but it doesn't help with the motility problems that opiates cause by inhibiting peristalsis. There's still the matter of getting the stool to travel through. And this is where the diverticulitis comes in. So yeah, I can see where very long-term opiate use could cause problems for some people.

Unfortunately the impactions have torn my intestines. This will need to be repaired with surgery.

I have stopped the use of all pain meds because I am looking at a level four spinal fusion and need to lower my tolerance so that I will get some pain relief after surgery.

I have been on the pain meds every day for almost ten years. I am not talking about the constipation that occurs when you first start pain meds. Impaction is very different and was caused by the opiates slowing down my digestive system. Everything is just stagnit which is not good. Your body needs to clean itself and when your ability to get the watse out, it just builds up and builds up until it tears your intestines.

I no longer get the feeling of having to go to the bathroom. I know it is time to do something when my stomach becomes hard and distended. And even then I can only excavate the very end with suppositories and then things begin to move VERY slowly and painfully. The blockages are in the intestines, so a stool softener is not going to help much and cause more pain. It really is awful and I don't enjoy talking about it.

But it is a very real side effect of long term opiate use. It has been two weeks since I stopped taking all of my medications and so far no improvement. I have had two bowel movements in 16 days and each took several hours of suppositories and screaming in pain.

I will be having surgery as soon as I settle the spinal surgery. My doctor's here in FL have all suggested that I have a pump implanted for the pain and to not even have the surgery. I feel like I have to at least try to get my life back. I have been in bed since April and will spend the rest of my life this way without surgery. I am just afraid that I will have a very difficult and painful recovery because of my tolerance to the pain medication.

I am sorry for getting off topic. I only meant to show one of the worst, but very real, side effects of long term opiate use.

shanesinpain, have you tried Magnesium Citrate? I don't know if it would be a safe "therapy" for you to try. If you're not familiar with it, it essentially evacuates everything from your colon. I drank 3 bottles, 1 every 20 minutes, before my colonoscopy and there was nothing left, except colon and intestine, when I watched it on the t.v. If you can take it give it a try. However your diverticulitis and blockage may cause complications. I hope you find something that helps, I know how painful and frustrating this can be.

Magnesium Citrate is a disgustingly sweet, carbonated "beverage" and I use that term loosely. It's an over the counter laxative, which is why you should speak to your Dr. if you have an obstruction. Midway through my 3rd bottle (and I have to get graphic here to make my point) all he11 broke loose. I spent the next 8hrs, glued to the toilet, with liquefied feces spewing out of me. By the next morning my colon was so clean you could've...I won't go there. My point is I saw no fecal matter or mucus left, anywhere, in my colon. I watched the whole thing on the monitor because the demerol/versed cocktail, that they hit me with twice, just made me feel warm and fuzzy until the procedure began.

If your Dr. OK's this stuff, grab a good book and something to drink, set aside 8hrs and a jumbo pack of the softest TP you can find.

shane~make sure you check with your doctor before trying any of these though...while they work great for some with your conditions they might be dangerous for you....i've had a lot of problems due to being on meds almost my entire life and some of these remedies are dangerous for me...but i only found that out after actually checking with my doc.

Shane, one old fashioned, but very practical and useful remedy is mineral oil. No taste to it, but a tablespoon or two before bedtime helps immensely. And have you tried Milk of Magnesia? That stuff could unlock Superman's fortress!

Once you get the impaction cleared (and I presume you haven't tried an enema), start using the colace and mineral oil. That should keep things movingly along quite nicely.

Thanks Ray.

My doctor said he would prefer that I just heat a healthy diet and try to get my body to start acting on its own instead of adding any more medication to the picture.

Then once I have the Spinal Surgery, I will be having the surgery to repair the intestines.

Oh...And I am a SHE...lol

Shane